Bug 20484 - de_DE: abbreviated weekdays should be two letters and a dot
Summary: de_DE: abbreviated weekdays should be two letters and a dot
Status: RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Alias: None
Product: glibc
Classification: Unclassified
Component: localedata (show other bugs)
Version: unspecified
: P2 normal
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: Mike FABIAN
URL:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2016-08-17 20:55 UTC by mbalk
Modified: 2017-10-18 13:51 UTC (History)
5 users (show)

See Also:
Host:
Target:
Build:
Last reconfirmed: 2017-09-09 00:00:00
fweimer: security-


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Description mbalk 2016-08-17 20:55:33 UTC
According to http://www.duden.de/node/780552/revisions/1211601/view
weekdays for de_DE have to be abbreviated with a dot, e.g. "Mo." for
Montag and so on.
Comment 1 Mike Frysinger 2016-08-17 21:39:24 UTC
we discussed this a bit on the lists already:
  https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2016-02/msg00144.html
Comment 2 Mike FABIAN 2017-09-09 10:09:39 UTC
See also https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20482
Comment 3 Mike FABIAN 2017-09-09 10:31:36 UTC
CLDR makes no difference for the weekday abbreviations in the
various German locales, they all share the same weekday
abbreviations.

http://www.unicode.org/repos/cldr/trunk/common/main/de.xml

has:

	<days>
		<dayContext type="format">
			<dayWidth type="abbreviated">
				<day type="sun">So.</day>
				<day type="mon">Mo.</day>
				<day type="tue">Di.</day>
				<day type="wed">Mi.</day>
				<day type="thu">Do.</day>
				<day type="fri">Fr.</day>
				<day type="sat">Sa.</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="narrow">
				<day type="sun">S</day>
				<day type="mon">M</day>
				<day type="tue">D</day>
				<day type="wed">M</day>
				<day type="thu">D</day>
				<day type="fri">F</day>
				<day type="sat">S</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="short">
				<day type="sun">So.</day>
				<day type="mon">Mo.</day>
				<day type="tue">Di.</day>
				<day type="wed">Mi.</day>
				<day type="thu">Do.</day>
				<day type="fri">Fr.</day>
				<day type="sat">Sa.</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="wide">
				<day type="sun">Sonntag</day>
				<day type="mon">Montag</day>
				<day type="tue">Dienstag</day>
				<day type="wed">Mittwoch</day>
				<day type="thu">Donnerstag</day>
				<day type="fri">Freitag</day>
				<day type="sat">Samstag</day>
			</dayWidth>
		</dayContext>
		<dayContext type="stand-alone">
			<dayWidth type="abbreviated">
				<day type="sun">So</day>
				<day type="mon">Mo</day>
				<day type="tue">Di</day>
				<day type="wed">Mi</day>
				<day type="thu">Do</day>
				<day type="fri">Fr</day>
				<day type="sat">Sa</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="narrow">
				<day type="sun">S</day>
				<day type="mon">M</day>
				<day type="tue">D</day>
				<day type="wed">M</day>
				<day type="thu">D</day>
				<day type="fri">F</day>
				<day type="sat">S</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="short">
				<day type="sun">So.</day>
				<day type="mon">Mo.</day>
				<day type="tue">Di.</day>
				<day type="wed">Mi.</day>
				<day type="thu">Do.</day>
				<day type="fri">Fr.</day>
				<day type="sat">Sa.</day>
			</dayWidth>
			<dayWidth type="wide">
				<day type="sun">Sonntag</day>
				<day type="mon">Montag</day>
				<day type="tue">Dienstag</day>
				<day type="wed">Mittwoch</day>
				<day type="thu">Donnerstag</day>
				<day type="fri">Freitag</day>
				<day type="sat">Samstag</day>
			</dayWidth>
		</dayContext>
	</days>

I.e. the 2-letter abbreviations without dots are used for "stand-alone", "abbreviated"
whereas the 2-letter abbreviations with dots are used for "stand-alone", "short",
and for "format", "abbreviated" and for "format", "short".

And none of the de_*.xml files overrides this, so it is the same
for all German locales.

So it doesn’t look like there needs to be a difference between
Switzerland and Germany here according to CLDR.

If you really believe there should be a difference, can you please open
a bug with CLDR?
Comment 4 keld@keldix.com 2017-09-10 10:45:15 UTC
Hi

I think we should have an entry for POSIX-like day and month abbreviations, that should be
3 letters wide.

I do not think we need to coordinate all our data with CLDR, I actually think we have a
very active community that  is capable of maintaining our inforation ourselves.

So no need to open bug requests with CLDR - but of cause we should try to align with them, and they with us.

I believe there is a difference in month names between Germany and Austria.

Best regrds
keld



On Sat, Sep 09, 2017 at 10:31:36AM +0000, maiku.fabian at gmail dot com wrote:
> https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20484
> 
> --- Comment #3 from Mike FABIAN <maiku.fabian at gmail dot com> ---
> CLDR makes no difference for the weekday abbreviations in the
> various German locales, they all share the same weekday
> abbreviations.
> 
> http://www.unicode.org/repos/cldr/trunk/common/main/de.xml
> 
> has:
> 
>         <days>
>                 <dayContext type="format">
>                         <dayWidth type="abbreviated">
>                                 <day type="sun">So.</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Mo.</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Di.</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mi.</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Do.</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Fr.</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Sa.</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="narrow">
>                                 <day type="sun">S</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">M</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">D</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">M</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">D</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">F</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">S</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="short">
>                                 <day type="sun">So.</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Mo.</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Di.</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mi.</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Do.</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Fr.</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Sa.</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="wide">
>                                 <day type="sun">Sonntag</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Montag</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Dienstag</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mittwoch</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Donnerstag</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Freitag</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Samstag</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                 </dayContext>
>                 <dayContext type="stand-alone">
>                         <dayWidth type="abbreviated">
>                                 <day type="sun">So</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Mo</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Di</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mi</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Do</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Fr</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Sa</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="narrow">
>                                 <day type="sun">S</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">M</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">D</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">M</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">D</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">F</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">S</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="short">
>                                 <day type="sun">So.</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Mo.</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Di.</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mi.</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Do.</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Fr.</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Sa.</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                         <dayWidth type="wide">
>                                 <day type="sun">Sonntag</day>
>                                 <day type="mon">Montag</day>
>                                 <day type="tue">Dienstag</day>
>                                 <day type="wed">Mittwoch</day>
>                                 <day type="thu">Donnerstag</day>
>                                 <day type="fri">Freitag</day>
>                                 <day type="sat">Samstag</day>
>                         </dayWidth>
>                 </dayContext>
>         </days>
> 
> I.e. the 2-letter abbreviations without dots are used for "stand-alone",
> "abbreviated"
> whereas the 2-letter abbreviations with dots are used for "stand-alone",
> "short",
> and for "format", "abbreviated" and for "format", "short".
> 
> And none of the de_*.xml files overrides this, so it is the same
> for all German locales.
> 
> So it doesn???t look like there needs to be a difference between
> Switzerland and Germany here according to CLDR.
> 
> If you really believe there should be a difference, can you please open
> a bug with CLDR?
> 
> -- 
> You are receiving this mail because:
> You are on the CC list for the bug.
Comment 5 Mike FABIAN 2017-09-10 12:53:25 UTC
(In reply to keld@keldix.com from comment #4)
> Hi
> 
> I think we should have an entry for POSIX-like day and month abbreviations,
> that should be
> 3 letters wide.
> 
> I do not think we need to coordinate all our data with CLDR, I actually
> think we have a
> very active community that  is capable of maintaining our inforation
> ourselves.
> 
> So no need to open bug requests with CLDR - but of cause we should try to
> align with them, and they with us.
> 
> I believe there is a difference in month names between Germany and Austria.

Yes, there is a difference in the month names. In de_AT and de_IT
the name for January is “Jänner”, in the other German locales it is
“Januar”.

But there is no difference in the weekday names among the German locales.

There maybe some difference in how to abbreviate the weekday names,
the reference given in 

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20482

says that weekdays in German speaking regions of Switzerland should
be abbreviated with two letters without a dot.

The reference gived to the Duden in comment#0 of this bug here
seems less convincing to me.

And CLDR does not make any difference in the weekday abbreviations
between any of the German locales.

CLDR has both the versions with and without the dots for different
types of abbreviations but no difference between the German locales.

I, personally, as German native speaker would tend to use the dots
if using the abbreviation in a full date like “So. 10. 09. 2017”
but without the dots if labelling columns of a calendar like

  September 2017    
So Mo Di Mi Do Fr Sa
                1  2
 3  4  5  6  7  8  9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

But that is only my personal opinion.

And I don’t find the reference given in comment#0 of this bug
particularly convincing, as it does not talk at all about
the context in which the abbreviation is used.

The reference given in

https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20482

does not talk about the context either, it unconditionally
says that no dots should be used.

Overall I think the two letter abbreviations without the dots
we have at the moment are reasonably good.

I would like to change this only if somebody comes up
with really better references why a change is needed.

Maybe discussing with CLDR upstream why they have the
current weekday abbreviations for German and why they
make no difference between the different German locales
helps to sort this out.
Comment 6 Mike FABIAN 2017-10-18 13:51:14 UTC
(In reply to Mike FABIAN from comment #5)

> Overall I think the two letter abbreviations without the dots
> we have at the moment are reasonably good.
> 
> I would like to change this only if somebody comes up
> with really better references why a change is needed.

Closing as WORKSFORME.