"shouted down", "shot down", apologies

Christopher Faylor cgf@redhat.com
Wed Jun 27 15:25:00 GMT 2001


On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:39:13PM -0400, Brian Keener wrote:
>Christopher Faylor wrote:
>> Well, just to backslide a little: http://cygwin.com/contrib.html ,
>> http://cygwin.com/cvs.html .
>> 
>> Or, more generically http://cygwin.com/ .
>>
>Well,
>
>I am probably going to jump into this now without intending to but this really 
>does not answer his question - sorry Chris and I am not aiming this at you 
>Chris - This is simply an observation. He asked:  
>
>>> So, if I want be able to rebuild all the cygwin packages, can I do that from
>>> source downloaded with setup.exe?  Can someone recommend a convenient way of
>>> building a "test cygwin" from that source which can be switched to (via a
>>> change to cygwin.bat) to try out changes?  Or do I really have to go the cvs
>>> route and work with the latest/greatest bleeding-edge packages?

>>>If csv is the only/best way, does someone have a cookbook which will
>>>allow me to setup a test environment, refresh the source, build
>>>everything, make a change, test it out, submit a patch -- all while
>>>keeping a working cygwin environment built off of setup.exe's download?

I was responding to this part.  It is at least a start for doing things.
I'm sorry that this wasn't obvious.

However, if it is not adequate, then it should be improved, right?

This is similar to the "I already read the FAQ" post.  If this was
inadequate then we need to know how so that it can be improved.  We
don't know if the original poster already read this and found it
inadequate or if he was completely unaware of its existence.

I guess this wasn't obvious from my response.  I promised to try
to be more polite.  I didn't promise that I would not be terse.

>As someone who is trying to learn C++ and never really worked with it
>much and as a contributor to the Cygwin project by contributing to
>setup.exe these are questions that I and many others have asked before
>at various times.  I have read the above links before and probably
>missed where the answers to John's questions were located but as far as
>I can tell there isn't a lot to get someone going on contributing to
>Cygwin.

Ok.  Then this is a problem.  How would you like to fix it?  I did spend
some time a while ago trying to augment the information there but this
is obviously old hat to me and you are saying that it is inadequate.

(You did check the pages before responding, right?)

I would appreciate update to the web pages that you find confusing.

Checkout instructions are below.

The Catch 22 is, of course, that the web pages are available under CVS.

cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@sourceware.cygnus.com:/cvs/cygwin login
cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@sourceware.cygnus.com:/cvs/cygwin co htdocs

The directory "htdocs" will contain the web pages.  If you post updates
here, I'll see that they get added to the web site.

When you make a change, the command "cvs diff -p" will produce the
differences.

>Or let me say there is a not a lot if you are inexperienced in cvs,
>cygwin, C++, gcc, make as they are used in this environment.  I have
>essentially pieced together from various sources (you Chris and Earnie
>and Dj and whole lot of others) and reading the man pages and asking
>very pointed questions just enough to be able to make changes, compile
>and test them and then submit them.

I guess the problem that I have with all of this is you almost never see
anyone in the gcc, or gdb projects professing that cvs checkout and building
to be a major obstacle.  I don't know what is so different about cygwin.

This project seems to attract more "newbies".  Maybe the "oldbies" are all
using linux and disdaining Windows.

>And while I have improved some of my techniques and even have some scripts to 
>do some of the updates and such for me - there is no "cookbook" which is what 
>he asked about.

IMO, There shouldn't really need to be any cookbook.

It should be as simple as following the instructions followed on:

http://cygwin.com/cvs.html

to check things out and then following the instructions in the FAQ under:

How do I rebuild the tools on my NT box?

to do the build.  (I forgot to mention the FAQ previously)

That is what I and many others do every day.  Once you have the tools
checked out and configured, it should be this simple:

bash$ cd /src/winsup
bash$ cvs update
bash$ cd /bld/i686-pc-cygwin/winsup
bash$ make

Why do you need a build script for this?

>I still cringe when I do an update from cvs and then have to do a
>configure and make because I usually run into a load of problems that
>takes me several days to get around.

Brian, I am sorry that you are having problems but I don't appreciate
this mystification of the whole process.  It is not that hard.  There
are occasional problems that are caused by people (like me) making
changes to things but the configure/make system changes only very
rarely.  Most of the time a simple "make clean; make all" fixes
the problem.

Very occasionally, you may have to wipe out your build directory and
reconfigure (I've never had to do this but some people seem to think it
fixes things).

I can see that people could have problems setting up their original
environment.  The documentation could be improved there.  Once
the environment is set up, however, it should be pretty easy to keep
it going.

>Of course the fact I am on Win95 as many have pointed out and have no
>clue what I am doing does not help.

I guess it is possible that Win95 is the source of your problem.  I
do recall that you had strange problems building.  I hate to say this
but you seemed to be the only one who had these problems.

Some people have problems with initial setup but, once they are beyond
this, they usually are able to use "cvs update" and "make" from then on.

>I also have never used the testsuite and have no idea how to.  I have
>never installed a cygwin I built from sources and have no idea how to
>although I build it regularly since it is part of my build script when
>I make changes to setup.

Then perhaps someone will volunteer how to do this.

You seem to be mystifying the process, again, however.  Testing cygwin
should be accomplished by typing "make check".  Installing cygwin is
tricky because you can't overwrite a running process.

So, what do you do?  You use the MS-DOS copy command to install it
to your bin directory.  Or, you drag it there with the GUI.

The new cygwin dll is named new-cygwin1.dll because you don't want
to create a cygwin1.dll while you're using the cygwin1.dll.

And, then once you've figured all of this out, you can offer these
pearls of wisdom to the mailing list as a modification to the FAQ or the
user documentation or the web page.

>While the web pages and the FAQ do tell you how to get the source and how to 
>send patches it really does not provide a cookbook.  I realize that we all like 
>self starters and the major contributors do not like to have to answer these 
>simplistic questions --- but those of us who are trying to learn and to help 
>some times need a boost and a few pointers down the right path. 

The major contributors answer these questions all of the time.  That is
how you learned.

>If I step on anyones toes here I am sorry and if I have overlooked things on 
>the web pages I am doubly sorry - for me (cause I've been missing out) and for 
>everyone else for having to put up with me asking.  Food for thought for all of 
>us - for some of us it is just as hard to bring ourselves to ask the questions 
>as it is for the rest to have to read them over and over, but sometimes if you 
>do not know what it is you're looking for and/or how to ask for it - it's 
>mighty tough to find in a web page or faq.
>
>Gonna go hide now :-)

This is another variation of the "This is what should be done" post.

I am exhorting people to think about how they can improve things.  The
major contributors are professing burn-out.

If you think that the documentation is inadequate, then improve it.

Or, I guess, you can offer your observations here, and maybe someone
else will be willing to improve it.

cgf

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