Re: [docbook-apps] Simpler XHTML output

[Larry Garfield <larry at garfieldtech dot com>]

I have to agree with Bob, here.  Yes, by default the stylesheets 
generate a lot of divs that have no default style.  That's a good thing, 
because it means that their style is entirely at our mercy. :-)  Yes it 
makes the code a bit larger, but I don't believe it makes any 
significant difference to the processing time on the client.  It can be 
more difficult to read IF you're code is not nicely indented, but using 
the chunker.output.indent option the resulting HTML is perfectly fine 
for me.

I too thought the extraneous divs were extraneous at first, until I very 
quickly ran into a case where they were needed.  I had (have) a 
multi-page output document with one chapter per HTML file, all using one 
DocBook XSL-specified CSS file.  Each chapter therefore has a TOC of its 
own in addition to the main TOC on the index page.  I wanted to style 
the TOC off to the right side in a float with a different background to 
make it more distinct and to save space.  My first cut doing that was 
simply:

div.toc {
background: Yellow;
width: 20%;
float: right;
}

Of course, that then did the same to the main TOC, which was clearly 
bad.  So I changed the selector to div.chapter div.toc, and all was 
right with the world.

Were the .chapter div not there, all would not have been right with the 
world.  The same cannot be accomplished with IDs, at least not in a way 
that would work in both single-page and chunked output.  (You'd have to 
give every chapter TOC its own ID, and then styling them all the same 
would be a huge pain.)

I guess consider that a use case. :-)  I suppose there may be divs in 
there that are extraneous in 99% of cases, but for most divs if they 
only problem they cause is that the code doesn't look as "pristine" then 
I'd rather err on the side of functionality.  Don't throw the baby out 
with the bath water.

For myself, I am more interested in just an XHTML 1.0 Strict, W3C 
Accessibility Guideline-friendly version of the output.  Remove the body 
attributes, use some structure other than tables to lay out the header 
and footer nav bars, etc.  Having a dozen sect1 divs in the page that I 
am not taking advantage of does not make the page not XHTML 1.0 Strict, 
nor does it violate W3C Accessibility Guidelines (AFAIK).

Bob Stayton wrote:
> > My view.
> >  Keep it simple, very simple. Omit all the class attributes, nested
> > divisions, etc etc.
> >  I.e. all content is part of the normal flow.
>
>
> I don't understand how you will apply styles if there is no way to select
> content in CSS.  It will certainly be simple, but it won't be styled.  8^)
>
> I guess I thought the goal of this project was to create an XHTML that could
> be completely controlled by a CSS.  In the current XHTML/HTML output, that
> is not the case because some styles are hard coded in deference to those who
> don't normally use CSS.  But if we create an XHTML that is explicitly
> dependent on CSS for styling, then we can use the full power of CSS.
>
> I agree that complexity should be moved from the XHTML to the CSS, but we
> need the hooks in the XHTML to apply the CSS, no?   The div elements serve a
> purpose in creating a structure in the XHTML that CSS can work with.  Since
> CSS styles can cascade down through the structure, you can set styles at the
> appropriate level and override them as needed in lower levels.  I agree that
> we should eliminate div elements that don't serve that purpose, but I can't
> see removing them all.
>
> Bob Stayton
> Sagehill Enterprises
> DocBook Consulting
> bobs@sagehill.net

--
Larry Garfield			AIM: LOLG42
larry@garfieldtech.com		ICQ: 6817012

"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of 
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an 
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it 
to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the 
possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of 
it."  -- Thomas Jefferson

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