RE: About coordinated efforts on scientific software.

["JJ Gomez-Cadenas" <gomez at ific dot uv dot es>]

Hi,
The discussion seems particullarly relevant for some fields that can benefit
enormously from free software such as high energy physics.

Recently a new project has been launched in the context of the Large Hadron
Collider project. The LHC will collide protons a TeV energies to search new
particles and explore the fundamental laws of physics. Very large detectors
will record the result of collisions and analyze terabites of data. It has
been recognized that robust numerical libraries, graphics packages,
simulations programs, data bases etc. are needed for this effort.

The LHC Grid Project (LHCGP) is trying to understand the possibilities and
make recommandations. In the past years, there was the trend at CERN and
other HEP labs to resort to commercial products (the use of objectivity or
oracle as data bases, for example, NAG as numerical library). This trend
seems, fortunately to be reversing now. LHCGP has recommended recently to
study the possibility to use GSL rather than NAG as the foundation
scientific library for HEP. THis seems today very likely.

However, one problem that free software faces is the diversity and lack of
coordination of the different efforts, as amply discussed here. In order to
be attractive to external clients, such as LHCGP or others, it would be
good, indeed, to see some coordination emerging. To me, one way to achieve
so --the trick is used very often in HEP-- is via one or more workshops.
Since some of us work at universities it doesn't seem impossible to find
some modest amount of funding if the thing is correctly and well-ahead
planned.

Also. If Brian and the other guys of GSL do not complain I believe this list
is a good place to continue the discussion for the time being, since it has
a very wide audience.

Let me bring an important subject to the discussion, that of wrappers. If
GSL is going to be truly the core of free-software numerical calculations,
wrappers are needed. For HEP it seems one would like C++ and python
wrappers. I have played for more than a year now with a C++ wrapper for GSL
and a number of non-trivial issues emerge, such as the speed, correct use of
error handling, minimizing of copying of structures and the like, which
often end up by suggesting re-implementation rather than wrapping (at least
for some parts of the library). It would be nice to understand better and to
discuss all those issues.

Best,

JJ Gomez-Cadenas


-----Mensaje original-----
De: gsl-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com
[mailto:gsl-discuss-owner@sources.redhat.com]En nombre de Manoj Warrier
Enviado el: lunes, 21 de octubre de 2002 21:50
Para: Alan Aspuru-Guzik
CC: gsl-discuss@sources.redhat.com
Asunto: Re: About coordinated efforts on scientific software.


Hi.

I was trying not to mail (because if someone asks me ..., "OK wise guy
so enough of talk, do something about it", I would be at a loss of words).

However here goes ...
Dare I try compressing Cristoph Siopi's mail into 3 main points:
1) Need to identify Core projects (numerical library, plotting/graphics
   language, etc)
2) Coding Standards.
3) Open source developers making a concerted effort to tackle points (1)
   and (2) above rather than digging thier own burrows.

I guess (hope rather) that GSL will eventually cover the numerical library
part of point (1). For plotting and graphics we again have a similar
situation as in the "mathematic packages" ... Check out
(http://scilinux.sf.net/graphvis.html"; for a list of free packages.

It reminds me of what I read about the formation of the MPI forum,
creation of standards, etc... However even that did not stop mpich /
LAM MPI / and other implementations of the Message Passing Interface.
That makes me wonder more about the "evolution" picture of software
development. However periodic stock taking (Conference ?? and creation
of standards or a umbrella project) like Alan suggests seems necessary.

And yes Alberto you are hearing what the public wants.... All the best.
I could create another mailing list for more detailed discussions
on what can be done (the most I can do at present :-( ).

Manoj

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Alan Aspuru-Guzik wrote:
> This e-mail is a reply to Cristoph Siopi's email.
snip
snip
>
> So there are some people that are indeed looking at the big picture. Maybe
> what we need in the volunteer arena is leadership and organization like
> the one that started umbrella projects, such as GNOME or KDE, that brought
> a lot of people together.
>
> Greetings,
> Alan

--
Manoj Warrier (manoj.warrier@ipp.mpg.de)

Stellaratortheorie, Max-Planck Institut Fur Plasmaphysik
TeilInstitut Greifswald Wendelsteinstrasse 1
D-17491 Greifswald Germany Tel: +49-3834-882434

--------- History of Computing 10-11-3003 ---------------
Then there used to be this great user friendly OS which
overwrote your MBR whenever you installed it.
---------------------------------------------------------