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Re: Cygwin_setup.exe comments...

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Linda W. wrote:

> Igor Pechtchanski wrote:
> >Linda,
> >
> >Have you tried a setup snapshot?  <>.
> ----
> [a very creative rant snipped]
>     So anyway, I'm not being xtremely venturous on my computer these
> days -- I did install the latest released setup though.

Ok, I've just verified that we're using the same version -- I was using
a CVS build of setup, but it turns out that it's 2.415; same one as on the
main webpage.  There apparently were no later snapshots.

> >Already there.
> Haven't seen this -- Each time I get to the where to install from it's
> sorta stupidly picking the least general option ('direct').  If I was
> engaging my brain to make things easy for a user, I'd figure, Gee, they
> are on windows. They _likely_ have IE configured to access the internet.
> Maybe I'll default to that instead of direct connect.  But hey, that's
> just me thinking out off the top of my user-friendly encrusted training.

Hmm...  If you were proposing to change the default, you should have said
so.  What you said was that setup doesn't remember the last selected
option, which is wrong -- it does.  The file /etc/setup/last-connection
should contain the last selection for this dialog, and will restore it
next time you run setup (it does for me, at least).  I get the "Use IE
Settings" selection restored every time...

Does the "last-connection" file exist in your /etc/setup?  If not, perhaps
your /etc/setup isn't writeable?  If it does, but doesn't store the
information, perhaps the file itself isn't writeable?

> >Some are already there...
> None of them work in the released version.  I seem to get taken through
> every dialogue.  I have RSI -- that's like in "repetitive stupid
> interactions" with dumb UI.  I can't even just click 'ok' -- cause the
> 'you bad naughty person -- you are doing what most developers do and
> making your install dir "c:\"....are you sure you want to do what any
> sane developer is already doing?  <move mouse> <click> <move mouse back
> to 'next'>...etc.

Umm, ok, so you're really complaining about having to move the mouse to
reply to the "c:\" check dialog, and no way of turning that dialog off.
That is a valid complaint.  If I have time, I'll add an option to bypass
this check shortly.

> >IMO, it's better the way it is now -- all the dialogs still there, but the
> >values are saved; you just click "Next".
> ----
>     What part of repetitive stupid inteface don't you get?  It hurts.
> It causes damage.  It screws people up.  Sorry my tone is going to
> [h-t]{4}, but the recounting the MS and Dell stupidity stirred up a bit
> of impatience with people 'who know better' and tell me it's better that
> I reformat my disk, that way I can re-enter all the options and just
> click 'next'.  You don't know the joy that 'attitude' inspires in me.

Rule 1 of usenet posting: do not post while angry or intoxicated (or
both). ;-)  And I'm not implying you're intoxicated...

Seriously, though, I think there are two separate issues here: whether
setup should show all dialogs when the options are remembered, and whether
it should show everything when things are specified on the command line.
I tend to think that if you *remember* the options from last time, you'd
better show *everything* to the user so she has a chance to correct some
options for this run.  If the user specifies things on the command line,
it implies that she knows what she's doing, and thus there's no need to
show the dialogs.

Since we were talking about memoizing the options, I believe my point
above is valid.  Command-line options are a whole different ballgame.

> >Frankly, I think Cygwin setup is simply marvelous in terms of window size,
> >especially when compared with something like <>...
> ---
>     So? are saying just because you are better than MS, for
> example, that this means anything?  I'm a faster typer than my dog too.

A healthy doze of sarcasm back there... ;-)

> And?  This is a standard for good?  What's wrong with a resizable
> window?  I really don't know -- does it require a Ph.D. to do?  I've
> never done windows programming, so I really don't know, but is it really
> that difficult?

Actually, no, a Ph.D. is apparently not enough (I do have one, and I don't
understand the intricacies of the interface enough to make that dialog
properly resizeable).  And I *have* done a fair share of Windows (and GUI)
programming.  Face it: it's just *not that easy*.  If it were, someone
would have implemented it.  It might be a good exercise to actually look
at the code instead of useless complaining.  There must be a reason why
it's been on the setup TODO list next to forever.

> >> auto select server with lowest response
> >>latency....but that's too much work for the benefit right now...(IMO)...
> >
> >This was proposed already -- see the cygwin-apps archives.  In fact, most
> >of your suggestions have been brought up at one time or another, and they
> >all either are being worked on, or have been already.
> ---
>     Oh good, glad I'm not the only one actually thinking about
> things...I'm afraid to even mention the issue of "performance" (because
> I don't know how to fix it and wouldn't have the first clue of how to
> start -- sorta hard when you are limited to typing 20-60 minutes a day).

The setup developers will certainly review (and maybe even address) any
legitimate complaints about performance.  The only one I've seen so far
(abysmally slow when changing "Default" to "Install" for "All" in the
category view) has been addressed by Rob Collins a while ago.

> >>Under the "it would be nice", category, being able to click on an item
> >>and right click on it to get more information would be real helpful at
> >>times.  Some program names I don't recognize, and things like
> >>"nasm" assembler...what's a network assember vs.  the
> >>gnu-assumber ("gasm"?).
> >
> >See above.  You can probably even search the cygwin-apps archives for
> >"right-click" on this one...
> ----
>     I can probably search the web for almost anything.  That doesn't
> mean it doesn't bear repeating.  Just because any historian knows that
> prohibition was a failure that was a monumental boost/start to organized
> crime in america doesn't mean the lessens are remembered today.  Just
> because sam or tom or mary said something 3 months or 3 years ago in the
> archives doesn't mean everyone on the list now remembers that they said
> it.  Maybe you do, but I don't.  And I don't intend to memorize the
> archives.

You shouldn't memorize them.  But it makes sense to check whether
something's been proposed before reiterating it.  Useless repetition
simply annoys developers, and doesn't get things fixed.  Especially since
a simple Google search for 'cygwin setup "release notes" inurl:ml' would have found the exact messages proposing this.
Incidentally, the first message in the above search gives a very good
summary of Setup feature requests.

Another place to check is the setup TODO list and WISHLIST in the README.
You can either download the setup source package, or check it out on

> Call me stupid (many people do as I sometimes show a remarkable lack of
> tact), but when I develop a product, I generally do so to make life
> easier for others -- not just for me.  I do scripts and"'one-of's" for
> me, but programs/projects -- I want alot of input -- even if it is
> repetitious so I get a clue of what people are wanting "today" -- not
> some "archive" months or years ago.

The spirit of open source is "you scratch your own itch, and maybe share
it with others".  Apparently, nobody found this itch so annoying that they
have to fix it "right away", except for you.  We'd be delighted to review
your patch if you choose to eventually share it with us... ;-)

> If I can't please them or they are being unreasonable, screw-em.

[raised eyebrow]

> But when they ask nicely, I usually try for a polite response and not
> something to make them feel like I've just blown them off.  I'd like
> them to stay interested and engaged in the product -- if not developing,
> at least using and giving feedback. How else can I develop the best?  I
> can't even come close to pretending I know the wants and desires of
> everyone out there.  Just doesn't happen w/o input.

Well, unfortunately, the spirit of open source is not pleasing customers.
There *are* no customers (to play off "The Matrix").  You develop things
that you, personally, would want to use, and share them with the community
(on a purely volunteer basis).  If you are dissatisfied with a tool
someone else developed, the source is there -- you're welcome to fix
whatever you don't like.  If you feel charitable (ah, there's a keyword),
you share the fix with the rest of the community.

In commercial development, programmers are paid to field off customer
suggestions with a polite "thank you, it's been reported before, we're
working on a fix".  In the open source community, volunteer developers
would rather spend the time fixing things on their TODO lists than
politely replying to the umpteenth complaint about the same thing.  It is
the responsibility of the people reporting bugs or requesting features to
do the research and make sure they're not saying something that's been
said before...  If they choose not to do this, they should be prepared to
be ignored or told off.

> >Someone does.  Most of that stuff is already on there
> ---
>     I loaded the latest released version, today.  My comments are based
> on that code.  None of what I mentioned is addressed.  That's why I
> suggested it -- I mean if I thought about it, and someone suggested a
> bunch of things that I thought were already in the product, I'd probably
> wonder why they were suggesting it -- like maybe there is a bug
> somewhere and they aren't seeing the same behaviors I see.  But that's
> usually my first response, because I usually (perhaps wrongly) assume
> that the person may have a point -- and that's why they bothered to
> waste their time writing about it.

A lot of the stuff *is* already there, whether you believe it or not.  Of
the things that weren't, most are in the TODO and WISHLIST, which means
someone will get to them eventually.

>     So go ahead and believe it's all there...because it's not working in
> the releaseed version.  having to go through each page isn't
> "automatic".  It's manual and "repetitive" -- like in RSI injuries (and
> people wonder why RSI's are so prevelant in the Computer industry...)

One thing I stated which is not true (and for which I apologize) is that
the "Create icon on Desktop"  and "Add icon to Start Menu" settings are
remembered.  The way these boxes are set is that if there's already an
icon/menu item there, the box is unchecked.  If you never want to create
the desktop icon, you will have to uncheck the box every time.  The good
news, though, is that there *are* command-line parameters to control this:
"--no-shortcuts" ["-n"] (also separately through "--no-start-menu" ["-N"]
and "--no-desktop" ["-d"]); the bad news is that the "--no-start-menu" one
(but not the others) will apparently pop up a message box...

> thoroughly trashed linda.

FWIW, I'm sorry for your MS and Dell troubles...  BTDT.

> (to microsoft with ya!)
> (how's that for a curse!) ;-/

You don't know the half of it. :-D
      |\      _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_
     |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'		Igor Pechtchanski, Ph.D.
    '---''(_/--'  `-'\_) fL	a.k.a JaguaR-R-R-r-r-r-.-.-.  Meow!

"I have since come to realize that being between your mentor and his route
to the bathroom is a major career booster."  -- Patrick Naughton

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