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Re: Translation for extension is a bad idea
- To: "Jürgen A. Erhard" <jae at ilk dot de>
- Subject: Re: Translation for extension is a bad idea
- From: Jonathan Bartlett <johnnyb at wolfram dot com>
- Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:22:27 -0500 (CDT)
- cc: guile at sourceware dot cygnus dot com
Okay, just because someone says "I" does not mean that they are ignoring
> Han-Wen> 6. is the language popular enough?
> It seems here Python (and, sadly, Perl ;-) scores much higher than
> Scheme (or any Lisp derivate).
This was mentioned.
> Han-Wen> 7. do I enjoy writing code in the language?
> "Will my users enjoy writing code in the language?". The question is:
> who do you do that extension language for: yourself or your users.
This was the perspective that was taken. He said that Guile doesn't hit
the mark on numbers 6 and 7.
> Repeat after me: "Will my users enjoy this language". I'd actually
> like to have some kind of BASIC as an extension language (one of many,
> mind you... I'd like to give users maximum freedom... similar, but not
> the same as "TIMTOWTDI")
I think you are really underestimating users. In my experience, users
learn whatever you give them to learn, as long as they have the tools to
learn with (a good book and someone who will answer questions). If you
give them basic, they will learn basic. The only thing that makes users
angry/frustrated/whatever is when there are a lot of exceptions to rules.
That's one area that scheme is really good at. There's a few exceptions,
but not many.
Where I work, I have tought Mac users both Perl and the UNIX command line.
This isn't a testament to my teaching skill as much as it is to users'
adaptability. If you give users a little credit, they will amaze you.
> Sorry, but you're mistaken here. We can all *wish* Sawfish would do
> anything for Lisp, but most people using it (and most if not all
> Helix-GNOME users are) will most certainly not even be aware that it
> is largely implemented in Lisp (nor do they care).
Actually, GIMP and sawfish are what got me interested in scheme. You are
right, most users don't care what language a program is implemented in.
However, the people who write extensions do care. And those are the
people we are discussing here. In fact, in sawfish, the configuration is
done in scheme, but there is a GUI, so you don't even have to know you are
configuring it in scheme.
> Han-Wen> It's too bad that the space for window managers has
> Han-Wen> already been taken from GUILE, but maybe we can show the
> Han-Wen> power of GUILE with another application. That will
> Han-Wen> accomplish much more than any kind of translator will
> Han-Wen> ever do.
> Actually, there's SCWM (you're aware of that, I assume). Which makes
> a bad point for Guile when compared to Sawfish (but that may or may
> not be the fault of Guile).
Actually the author of Sawfish has mentioned going over to Guile. He had
a few problems with it (I can't remember them right now), but he said that
if those were resolved, he would consider switching.