[docbook] Revised: DocBook Technical Committee Meeting Minutes: 18 Mar 2003

[Norman Walsh <ndw at nwalsh dot com>]

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I failed to distinguish between Mark and Dick a couple of times.
Sorry, guys.

/ Norman Walsh <ndw at nwalsh dot com> was heard to say:
| | DocBook Technical Committee Meeting Minutes: 18 Mar 2003
| | ========================================================
| |
| | The DocBook Technical Committee will met on Tuesday, 18 Mar 2003
| | at 01:00p EST (10:00a PST, 18:00GMT, 19:00CET, 03:00JST+) 
| | for 90 minutes.
| [...]
| | Agenda
| |
| | 1. Roll call
|
| Steve Cogorno
| Paul Grosso
| Dick Hamilton
| Nancy Harrison
| Scott Hudson
| Mark Johnson
| Bob Stayton
| Norman Walsh
|
| Absent:
|
| Michael Smith
|
| Norm explains ongoing problems with OASIS mail/web servers.
|
| | 2. Accepting the minutes of the previous meeting
|
| Accepted.
|
| | 3. Review of the agenda
|
| Accepted.
|
| | 4. Review of open action items {5 min}
| |
| |     a. Norm to follow-up on RFE 562343: <packagename> element
| Continued.
| |     b. Norm to write better documentation for option/optional
| Continued.
| |     c. Norm to post simplified ToC proposal to the list again
| Continued.
| |     d. Steve to provide a first draft of a requirements document for task/topic.
| Completed.
| |     e. Mike to post summary of annotations.
| Completed.
| |     f. Dick to ask local expert about annotations.
| Completed.
| |     g. Bob to post concrete example of associate purposes with components in
| |            refentries (Allow reference within refentry)
| Completed.
|
| ACTION: Norm to make an agenda item for next month.
|
| |     h. Norm to propose a new content model for mediaobjectco to bring
| |            it back in sync with mediaobject
| Continued.
| |     i. Bob to amend the RFE 558443 (storage info in metadata) and then close it
| Completed.
| |     j. Mike to summarize the URL/URN markup issue and propose a new URI element with
| |            appropriate attribute names and values
| Completed.
| |     k. Norm to ask Tony/Paul for a summary of what is missing from
| |            DocBook to support proper mixed bidi text.
| Completed.
|
| ACTION: Norm to post concrete proposal for this.
|
| |     l. Norm to put RFE 623524 ((re)consider choicelist markup) on the agenda
| Completed.
| |     m. Bob to review the list of bibliography elements and see which
| |            ones make sense in paragraph. Orgname is requested here, we already
| |            allow author and corpauthor. What about others?
| |            (Related to REF #679316 Allow orgname tag within paragraphs)
| Completed.
|
| ACTION: Norm to make an agenda item for next month.
|
| |     n. Norm to ask Denis Evans for his opinions on REF #686733, allow
| |             bibliography under <refentry>
| Continued.
| |     o. Norm to put releaseing 4.3 or 5.0 or whatever's next on the agenda
| Completed.
|
| 4b. HTML tables in DocBook
|
| Paul: My understanding was that I'd made my case and it was rejected.
| I still believe what I believe, but I'm happy to go with whatever the
| TC wants to decide. The more important question is how the TC wants to
| respond to other public comment.
|
| Bob: I was thinking about the idea of cutting and pasting because of
| the content models inside the table cells. That doesn't work because
| of markup in the cells. In my corpus, most tables have markup. You'd
| have to do a conversion anyway. Subsequent discussion has indicated
| that it's just the element names that need to be allowed, they just
| want a familiar set of tags.
|
| Nancy: If people want to use HTML tag names, they still have a
| different structure. The structure they're used to using those tag
| names in won't work anyway.
|
| Bob: You can form a table and use the HTML tag names until you get
| into the cell content.
|
| Norm: It is true that the tables could be identical if there was no
| entry-level markup. And there would be more presentational attributes
| in the HTML case.
|
| Steve: I think if we put an implementation in, we're still going to
| get complaints because users are used to being able to do a wide
| variety of things that wouldn't be valid.
|
| Steve/Paul debate the merits of supporting users or tools.
|
| Nancy: Cut and paste isn't going to work in either direction.
|
| Paul: What are we trying to do here? 
|
| Steve: We already get a lot of questions about what to do with markup,
| if we look at it as a recommendation of good tagging structure, we can
| give good advice.
|
| Norm argues that the mental transition from XHTML to CALS is
| significant and a body of users would find DocBook easier to learn if
| they didn't have to make that transition.
|
| Nancy: My recollection is that the way that we propose it's
| implemented you would choose one or another model.
|
| Bob: But the DTD couldn't enforce it.
|
| Norm: The DTD can't enforce every model, but it isn't that bad.
|
| Bob: What about htable?
|
| Norm: htable would still have to contain tbody.
|
| Steve: Is the 5.0 DTD going to be XML only? Couldn't we use namespaces?
|
| Norm: Most people are using DTDs and I don't think we can abandon that
| for a while.
|
| Norm: I'm concerned that people will make a non-interoperable DTD to
| support XHTML tables.
|
| Some discussion of what interoperable and subsets mean.
|
| Nancy: Can we take a straw poll on whether people are willing to
| include HTML tables or not?
|
| Dick: That would depend on how it's implemented.

(Incorrect attribution)

Mark: That would depend on how it's implemented.

| Discussion of Paul's proposal.
|
| Norm: If we used the Strict HTML, then you wouldn't get the
| presentational attributes.
|
| Straw Poll: Are you willing to include XHTML tables in DocBook along
| the lines of Paul's earlier proposed DTD changes?
|
| Steve Cogorno   N
| Paul Grosso     Y
| Dick Hamilton   Y
| Nancy Harrison  Y
| Scott Hudson    Y
| Mark Johnson    Y (with reservations)
| Bob Stayton     Y
| Norman Walsh    abstain
|
| Nancy: I think we've had a new data point, the users have asked us and
| so I think the users have demonstrated that it's important.
|
| ACTION: Paul to review how his proposal would change if we went with Strict
| instead of Transitional.
|
| | 5. Releasing V4.3 or V5.0
|
| Bob: I'd like to see a list of all the things we've approved and see
| if any of them require 5.0.
|
| ACTION: Norm to produce that summary.
|
| Bob: This also has implications for announcing 6.0.
|
| Steve: Can we do both? Release 4.3 and 5.0.
|
| Bob: The distinction is that we'd do the approved changes that aren't
| backwards compatible in 4.3.
|
| Proposal: Release 4.3 sooner rather than later.
|
| (General agreement)
|
| Dick: I have mixed feelings, 4.3 is easier to sell here, but at the
| same time I understand your concerns about getting to a 5.0.
|
| Proposed: Move discussion until next month.
|
| | 6. Choicelist markup
|
| ACTION: Norm to put on the agenda for next month.
|
| | 7. Annotations
|
| Dick: The presentational questions were some of our thoughts. The
| biggest reason we would use would be to provide an HTML title-like
| format. This introduces some co-constraint issues: you might want to
| have the content model only contain #PCDATA if the class attribute was
| title.
|
| Bob: What other uses does it have? It seems like structure could be useful.
|
| Norm: Yes, I think you'd need to allow structure even if it could make
| for problematic display in some circumstances.
|
| Paul: We need to make sure that we know what we're doing. I'm
| particularly concerned about some of the presentational expectations.
|
| Post to docbook list (not docbook-tc) for email discussion.
|
| ACTION: Norm to put on the agenda for next month.
|
| | 8. Review of Requests for Enhancement
| |
| |    To browse a specific RFE, enter the URL (on one line):
| |
| |      http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&;
| |      group_id=21935&atid=384107&aid=XXXX
| |
| |    where XXXX is the RFE number.
| |
| |      691762 syntax=""
|
| Mailing list archive is inaccessible. Return to this item next week.
|
| |      697374 marking up keycaps according to their semantics
|
| Norm summarizes the RFE.
|
| Bob: It seems like there's a semantic meaning associated with certain
| keys that isn't captured by the sequence of characters on the
| keyboard.
|
| Steve: There are a lot of keys. It's going to be a really long list.
|
| Dick: We could start with the intersection and leave an escape hatch.

(Incorrect attribution)

Mark: We could start with the intersection and leave an escape hatch.

| ACTION: Bob to write concrete proposal.
|
| |      698844 Add PDF to notation.class
|
| Accepted.
|
| |      705246 html/docbook.xsl should generate <!DOCTYPE>
|
| Misfiled.
|
| ADJOURNED.
|
| |      436067 splitting tech.char.class 
| |      473365 Allow optional in funcprototype 
| |      482818 Simplify ToC content model 
| |      514435 Allow reference within refentry 
| |      541444 caption in mediaobjectco 
| |      558443 include storage info in metadata 
| |      562343 <packagename> element 
| |      565637 Associate non-inline image with link 
| |      565716 URL and URN markup 
| |      573419 Add bidirectional text overrides 
| |      582822 VARARG and FUNCDEF together 
| |      623524 (Re)Consider "choicelist" markup 
| |      638456 RFE add a <translator> tag
| |      655526 funcprototype enhancement
| |      660044 Controlling line numbering in verbatims
| |      679316 Allow orgname tag within paragraphs
| |      686733 allow bibliography under <refentry>
| |
| |     The following RFEs are awaiting action items
| |
| |      413389 Enhance METHODNAME and VARNAME 
| |      431411 RFE 70: add generic linking capability
| |      522552 Add title attribute to <ulink> element
| |      574880 Add annotation element 
| |      613293 Generalize programlisting 
| |      621564 New element Task and children
| |
| |     The following RFEs are identified as V6.0 or later
| |
| |      531851 Remove inline person name elements
| |      532088 Remove RevHistory from qandaentry

                                        Be seeing you,
                                          norm

- -- 
Norman Walsh <ndw at nwalsh dot com>      | If youth is a fault, it is one
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | soon corrected.--Goethe
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee |
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