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Summary of "New to DocBook: XML or SGML, Clark or Open?"


(This is a summary of my question with the original title
 "New to DocBook: XML or SGML, Clark or Open?")

Hallo DocBookers,

Firstly, thanks to all who replied.  The answers
of the following persons are summarized (I am
not mentioning them later explicitly, but my thanks
goes to them implicitly, no particular order):

Laurent Pointal [laurent.pointal@lure.u-psud.fr]
dkoschuetzki@gmx.de [Dirk.Koschuetzki@bonn.shuttle.de]
M. Wroth [mark@astrid.upland.ca.us]
Jirka Kosek [jirka@kosek.cz]
Juan R. Migoya [promo804@hsoft.es]
Ramon Casellas [casellas@infres.enst.fr]

You answers really helped me to decide.  Sequences 
from my original message are prefixed
by > on the left.  The answers (presented rather
anonymously) may be cut of the context.  Feel free to
complain ;-)  My occasional remarks are placed as
[inlines] or separate paragraphs in parenthesis (you will
understand, I am sure :)

----------------------------------------------------------------
> Briefly first, more details below in the text:
> 
>  - Should I be oriented towards SGML or XML when starting
>    with DocBook as a total greenhorn?

* I tried XML. For several reasons I remained loyal to
  SGML. SGML is more oriented to printed documentation
  than XML, and after all, you work the same way. 

* XML is future of DocBook, SGML is past.

* SGML has the advantage of being more flexible in both
  markup (i.e. the ability to minimize or omit tags --
  useful if you're working in a text editor, less so if
  you're using a good editor. XML has better tool support
  (especially at the freeware level).

  Printed documentation tends to move one more toward
  DSSSL processors for output -- at least as far as I can
  see.  If you use that tool set, SGML or XML is not an
  issue.  If you use an XSL based tool set, that, of
  course would favor an XML solution.

* I have had a great deal understanding the DSSSL [which
  means orientation to SGML] from Norm Walsh. My advice
  would be that if you have time to spend learning, the
  effort will be compensated. I say this when actually I
  haven't had time enough to make my stylesheet
  customizations as good as I would like, but I have
  "real" results and I'm sure I will get at a stable
  point.

* In your situation I'd use SGML [...].  But the choice
  of XML/SGML at the front end is not likely to be a big
  deal for you (now), and XML seems to be direction most
  of the tool development is headed.


(I think that this needs further clarification. I have
found the article "XML/SGML: On the Web and Behind the Web"
at "http://www.sgmltech.com/papers/aatphv1099.htm"; which
seems to answer some of the questions. Reading that, I
personally incline towards SGML, while other sources say
that XML is the way.

What should be clarified is whether DocBook's future is
really XML or whether both XML/SGML branches are going to
be supported.)


----------------------------------------------------------------
>  - Do I need a unicode capable editor for XML?

* You do not need unicode editor. From your domain, I
  suppouse that you want write docs in Czech language
  [good guess ;-)]. In this case, you can start DocBook
  XML document with line
     <?xml version="1.0" encoding="windows-1250"?>
  or 
     <?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-2"?>
  and then use appropriate single-byte encoding.

* [edited...] there is a problem when HTML is generated
  from XML.  The character encoding is not set inside the
  generated HTML [...] Jade [...] SP_ENCODING=xml.


----------------------------------------------------------------
>  - Notice: I am using Windows NT (I have no choice).

* Read the tutorial "SGML for Windows NT" on how to set
  up a free SGML editing and publishing system for
  Windows NT by Markus Hoenicka:

  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/hoenicka_markus/ntsgml.html

  (I did not follow exactly everything from inside, but I
  found the tutorial really helpful.)

----------------------------------------------------------------
> Question on Clark vs. Open
> ==========================
> 
> This question is not the basic one for me.  I only would like to
> know, whether I should prefer Clark's SP and Jade or 
> OpenSP and OpenJade (and why).  Are these projects
> developed as competitors?  Did Clark ever expressed
> his opinion on OpenSP and OpenJade?

* Jade works correctly.

* I switched to OpenJade some time ago, but I went back
  to Jade because there was some problems with the
  stylesheets I hadn't found in Jade. So now I work with
  Jade. Some times in this list I have read "use Jade" in
  order to avoid a specific problem, but I'm unable to
  tell you if in this moment OpenJade is the right choice
  or not.

* I use jade (tried openJade but get into problems - jade
  has problems too at this time, which has been corrected
  since, but i haven't re-tried openJade) and DSSSL. I
  have tried to use the modern XSLT tools, but failed to
  make one work correctly in a short time (maybe with
  investigating more...).

* OpenJADE is the open source continuation of JADE,
  started with James' blessing when he became too
  involved in other projects to continue to update JADE.
  There is additional functionality in OpenJade, which
  may or may not be important to you (*I* haven't had any
  particular need for it, processing DocBook and some
  homegrown scripts, but YMMMV).  On the other hand, I
  have found the error messages from OpenJADE to be less
  than informative... which makes a difference, especially
  when you're trying to learn.

(This remains open for me, but I do not consider it a big
problem.)

----------------------------------------------------------------
> Question on JadeTeX
> ===================
> 
> I am thinking about using (La)TeX for generating printable
> version of the documentation and also the PostScript
> and PDF versions.  Is the TeX back-end the usual way
> for doing that?

* It is usual way, but not the only.  Another way to
  produce printed version is to use XSL stylesheets and
  some FO processor (e.g. PassiveTeX). This tool-chain is
  improving very rapidly. 

* Please check http://www.infres.enst.fr/~casellas/docbook.html
  and see if it fits your needs. [The alternative
  conversion tool to LaTeX, probably better for
  mathematics.]

* JadeTeX have some serious problems on longer documents.
  For larger documents I personally generate RTF file by
  Jade and then use Word and Distiller to get PDF. 

* The TeX backend attempts to use a TeX macro package to
  render the output of JADE, resulting in good quality
  typesetting for the printed documentation.  I like that
  approach in theory, but haven't had much luck with it
  in practice -- almost everything I print is done with
  the RTF backend.  (The TeX macros are built in LaTeX2e,
  BTW -- but unless you really want to monkey around with
  them, you edit in the SGML/XML and treat TeX as a black
  box.  Your previous LaTeX experience will probably help
  in getting everything going, though.)

(Notice: there is LaTeX3 project oriented towards SGML/DSSSL
http://www.latex-project.org/guides/ltx3info/ltx3info.html)

(Can anybody else confirm such problems with JadeTeX? I
want to use it -- what should I expect when compared with
usual LaTeX styles?)

================================================================

Notice on an editor: I do use (also for other purposes)
  the JED editor (http://space.mit.edu/~davis/jed/";)
  which emulates emacs.  It does not use lisp as internal
  language but it also has support for LaTeX, HTML, and
  SGML for DocBook (some bugs as the DocBook support is
  very young, but promissing ;-).


----------------------------------------------------------------
Notice on a project C++ source documentation: As I have
  noticed also some remark about literate programming...

    "I'll make the side plug that you might consider
     using something like Nuweb / LaTex in a literate
     programming environment if you're documenting code.
     Unfortunately, I know of no stable SGML/XML literate
     programming tools, although they should in principle
     be straightforward."

  I should mention that I do use Doxygen
  (http://www.doxygen.org/) which produces HTML, LaTeX,
  RTF and other formats (I think that it can be
  considered a tool for literate programming).  It uses
  Graphviz
  (http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/graphviz/) for
  generating inheritance diagrams, etc. The results are
  appreciated well by the users.

  What may be interesting for SGML/XML supporters is that
  there is some interest in using XML (SGML?) in the
  Doxygen comunity.  I think that the Doxygen developers
  would appreciate more help from SGML/XML experts (you
  should know that you will not be paid by money for that
  ;-)


----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to all for now,

Petr

-- 
Petr Prikryl, SKIL, spol. s r.o., prikrylp@skil.cz


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