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Re: Again: Apache FOP,Docbook: Features / Versions,"complete" Docbook distribution


>>
>>where documentation is really a hard thing, this is really a shame,
>>considering how much effort and time is e.g. put into the docbook
>>stylesheets... and an expert would need, lets say 20 minutes to explain
>>how to setup and install all this stuff together.
>>
> As a trainer I can tell you that it's simply not true.
> 
> First off, you'd have to write/explain every single permutation of tools
> that can be used to generate HTML/XHTML/PDF/PS/etc.


no, in fact not: I would distinguish between the average car user and 
the ralley driver who always has to have the newest turbo and spoiler 
and the like.

the meaning is this: off course: provide current updates off all 
subprojects for the specialists. but PLEASE provide ONE solution, that 
does is all for the "normal" user. this one must not be updated that 
often and also needs not to support xsl and dsssl and css and latex and...

simply select _one_ "permutation" as you have written, that simply 
works. e.g. xsl fo, or whatever. all the specialists that use DSSSL or 
latex or whatever may install the stuff by themselves.

see the difference?

> 
> Second, the fact that I can explain to you how to do something doesn't mean
> you'll be able to do it. Case in point, the Docbook FAQ explains how to use
> CSS style sheets but just search the docbook-apps list for CSS and how many
> times people like Norm and Bob Sayton have given the same answer
> 


sorry, but the main point you start searching is http://www.docbook.org 
the FAQ there is pretty short, and gives no information about xsl or fo 
stuff I would need.

moreover: this docbook.org site is definitly for specialists. there is 
no howto, no tutorial, ... a "normal" user will not be able to get ahead 
with the information provided there. to be clear: I dont want to accuse 
Norman Walsh: he obviously has very much work, I just want you (as an 
specialist) to explain the problems occuring and the results of those 
problems, namely using _lots_ of potential users.


> 
>>what is this time compared to the hours, days and weeks put into the
>>rest of the work?
>>
>>I am rather stubborn and want to get the thing running; but as I
>>mentioned before: 98 to 99% of all others take a look at for example
>>docbook; play around for an hour, dont get the stuff running, and (this
>>is the main point and danger!!) never come back, because the say: "this
>>is much too complex and does not work".
>>
> How much of that is Docbook's problem and how much of that is a problem with
> the Docbook Toolchain either for XSL or DSSSL?
> 


that doesnt matter at all. not at all: to the car example: if you buy a 
car, and it wont start. the dealer tells you: well this is the problem 
of electronic xyz, ask that company, this is not my problem.

what would you say?

as a matter of fact: a user detects: these things do not work. as long, 
as they do not enter deeper into this material they will not understand 
where the problem is located, and moreover: they are not interested. the 
same way as the normal windows user is not interested who's fault it is, 
if windows crashes for the x-th time (OS, driver, hardware...): it 
crashes, and it should not crash. dot.


> If we could all agree on a toolset to recommend to beginners, then it would
> be easier to write instructions for them and I'd be more than delighted to
> write it myself.


here again: it seems that especially engineers like to discuss for 10 
years if solution A is 2 percent better than solution B, and finally 
after 10 years, they conclude to start with again a better solution C, 
which will be finished in 5 years from then...

today nobody is interested in the very best telex machine ever, are you?

what does Nike say? Just do it!


*g*


ciao


Alex


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