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I am listed as a contributor for the be_BY locale We had a heated discussion almost 1 year ago on the belarusian i18n mailing list <i18n@mova.org> around belarusian locales. Many belarusian translators for FOSS software are on the list and we invited Bruno Haible to help us on the topic. Upon the discussion results, I suggest introducing a new locale named be_BY@classic for the Belarusian classic writing which is the only productive (in the linguistic sense) writing in Belarus nowadays. This matches the advice of Bruno. Whoever will commit this change should contact him if more details are required. Petter Reinholdtsen has also been included in the dicussion but fell off pretty quickily. Below comes the contents of the locale definition: comment_char % escape_char / % % Belarusian Language Locale for Belarus % Contact: Alexander Mikhailian % Email: mikhailian@altern.org % Language: be % Territory: BY % Revision: 0.5 % Date: 2004-08-24 % Application: general % Users: general % Repertoiremap: mnemonic.ds % Charset: CP1251, UTF-8 % Distribution and use is free, also % for commercial purposes. LC_IDENTIFICATION title "Belarusian locale for Belarus, traditional spelling" source "Belarusian i18n mailing list" address "i18n@mova.org" contact "Alexander Mikhailian" email "mikhailian@altern.org" tel "+32 494 60 91 31" fax "" language "Belarusian" territory "Belarus" revision "1.0" date "2000-06-29" audience "" application "" abbreviation "taraskievica" % category "be_BY:2000";LC_IDENTIFICATION category "be_BY:2000";LC_CTYPE category "be_BY:2000";LC_COLLATE category "be_BY:2000";LC_TIME category "be_BY:2000";LC_NUMERIC category "be_BY:2000";LC_MONETARY category "be_BY:2000";LC_MESSAGES category "be_BY:2000";LC_PAPER category "be_BY:2000";LC_TELEPHONE category "be_BY:2000";LC_MEASUREMENT category "be_BY:2000";LC_NAME category "be_BY:2000";LC_ADDRESS END LC_IDENTIFICATION LC_COLLATE copy "iso14651_t1" % iso14651_t1 is missing Ukrainian ghe collating-symbol <UKR-GHE> reorder-after <CYR-GZHE> <UKR-GHE> reorder-after <U0453> <U0491> <UKR-GHE>;<BAS>;<MIN>;IGNORE reorder-after <U0403> <U0490> <UKR-GHE>;<BAS>;<CAP>;IGNORE reorder-end END LC_COLLATE LC_CTYPE copy "i18n" END LC_CTYPE LC_MESSAGES yesexpr "<U005E><U005B><U0414><U0434><U0059><U0079><U005D><U002E><U002A>" noexpr "<U005E><U005B><U041D><U043D><U004E><U006E><U005D><U002E><U002A>" END LC_MESSAGES LC_MONETARY int_curr_symbol "<U0042><U0059><U0052><U0020>" currency_symbol "<U0440><U0443><U0431>" mon_decimal_point "<U002E>" mon_thousands_sep "<U0020>" mon_grouping 3;3 positive_sign "" negative_sign "<U002D>" int_frac_digits 2 frac_digits 2 p_cs_precedes 0 p_sep_by_space 1 n_cs_precedes 0 n_sep_by_space 1 p_sign_posn 1 n_sign_posn 1 END LC_MONETARY LC_NUMERIC decimal_point "<U002C>" thousands_sep "<U002E>" grouping 3;3 END LC_NUMERIC LC_TIME day "<U041D><U044F><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043B><U044F>";/ "<U041F><U0430><U043D><U044F><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043B><U0430><U043A>";/ "<U0410><U045E><U0442><U043E><U0440><U0430><U043A>";/ "<U0421><U0435><U0440><U0430><U0434><U0430>";/ "<U0427><U0430><U0446><U044C><U0432><U0435><U0440>";/ "<U041F><U044F><U0442><U043D><U0456><U0446><U0430>";/ "<U0421><U0443><U0431><U043E><U0442><U0430>" abday "<U041D><U044F><U0434>";/ "<U041F><U0430><U043D>";/ "<U0410><U045E><U0442>";/ "<U0421><U0440><U0434>";/ "<U0427><U0446><U0432>";/ "<U041F><U044F><U0442>";/ "<U0421><U0443><U0431>" first_weekday 2 first_workday 2 mon "<U0421><U0442><U0443><U0434><U0437><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U041B><U044E><U0442><U044B>";/ "<U0421><U0430><U043A><U0430><U0432><U0456><U043A>";/ "<U041A><U0440><U0430><U0441><U0430><U0432><U0456><U043A>";/ "<U0422><U0440><U0430><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U0427><U044D><U0440><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U041B><U0456><U043F><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U0416><U043D><U0456><U0432><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U0412><U0435><U0440><U0430><U0441><U0435><U043D><U044C>";/ "<U041A><U0430><U0441><U0442><U0440><U044B><U0447><U043D><U0456><U043A>";/ "<U041B><U0456><U0441><U0442><U0430><U043F><U0430><U0434>";/ "<U0421><U044C><U043D><U0435><U0436><U0430><U043D><U044C>" abmon "<U0421><U0442><U0434>";/ "<U041B><U044E><U0442>";/ "<U0421><U0430><U043A>";/ "<U041A><U0440><U0441>";/ "<U0422><U0440><U0430>";/ "<U0427><U044D><U0440>";/ "<U041B><U0456><U043F>";/ "<U0416><U043D><U0432>";/ "<U0412><U0440><U0441>";/ "<U041A><U0441><U0442>";/ "<U041B><U0456><U0441>";/ "<U0421><U043D><U0436>" d_t_fmt "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0064><U0020><U0025><U0062>/ <U0020><U0025><U0059><U0020><U0025><U0054>" d_fmt "<U0025><U0064><U002E><U0025><U006D><U002E><U0025><U0059>" t_fmt "<U0025><U0054>" am_pm "";"" t_fmt_ampm "" date_fmt "<U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025><U0062><U0020><U0025><U0065>/ <U0020><U0025><U0048><U003A><U0025><U004D><U003A><U0025><U0053><U0020>/ <U0025><U005A><U0020><U0025><U0059>" END LC_TIME LC_PAPER % FIXME height 297 % FIXME width 210 END LC_PAPER LC_TELEPHONE tel_int_fmt "<U002B><U0025><U0063><U0020><U0025><U0061><U0020><U0025>/ <U006C>" int_prefix "<U0033><U0037><U0035>" int_select "<U0038><U007E><U0031><U0030>" END LC_TELEPHONE LC_MEASUREMENT % FIXME measurement 1 END LC_MEASUREMENT LC_NAME name_mr "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440>" name_ms "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440><U044B><U043D><U044F>" name_mrs "<U0441><U043F><U0430><U0434><U0430><U0440><U044B><U043D><U044F>" name_miss "" name_gen "" name_fmt "<U0025><U0064><U0025><U0074><U0025><U0067><U0025><U0074>/ <U0025><U006D><U0025><U0074><U0025><U0066>" END LC_NAME LC_ADDRESS postal_fmt "<U0025><U0066><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0061><U0025><U004E>/ <U0025><U0064><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0062><U0025><U004E><U0025><U0073>/ <U0020><U0025><U0068><U0020><U0025><U0065><U0020><U0025><U0072><U0025>/ <U004E><U0025><U0025><U007A><U0020><U0025><U0054><U0025>/ <U004E><U0025><U0063><U0025><U004E>" country_name "<U0411><U0435><U043B><U0430><U0440><U0443><U0441><U044C>" country_post "" country_car "<U0042><U0059>" country_ab2 "<U0042><U0059>" country_ab3 "<U0042><U004C><U0052>" country_num 112 country_isbn 5 lang_name "<U0411><U0435><U043B><U0430><U0440><U0443><U0441><U043A>/ <U0430><U044F><U0020><U043C><U043E><U0432><U0430>" END LC_ADDRESS
Alexander, you should consider replacing LC_* sections by copy "be_BY" when they are identical to be_BY (i.e. all except LC_TIME, from what I've seen, and of course LC_IDENTIFICATION), this would help future maintenance of your locale files.
Created an attachment (id=529) be_BY@classic belarusian locale OK, here comes the modified version. Sorry for the delay.
I think, word "classic" here would be misleading. This qualifier of the aforementioned orthography is self-awarded and is inaccurate by any definition, as both qualifier and orthography aren't used or recognized as such by anybody excepting rather minor minority. I'd suggest naming this be_BY@alternative. This would be 100% accurate per all definitions of "classic" and "alternative", pertain accurately to the goals of the mentioned minority movement, and there's a precedent of the usage of the term "alternative" in this part of the world (DOS Cyrillic codepages in late 1980-s). Also, you won't have a problem with multitude of "alternatives" as there seems to exist now some kind of standard on this alternative. Yes, I was participating in aforementioned discussion and No, I won't re-start the discussion *here*, unless asked for further explanations. However, feel free to contact me privately via e-mail, if needed or interested.
Belarusian locale is very necessary! +1 !
> I think, word "classic" here would be misleading. See to linguistic literature - http://www.knihi.net/index.php?productID=224 "classic" is name of the spelling.
We need Belarusian locale
I didn't make myself clear, then. This isn't about linguistics at all. In Belarusian language community, there exists certain interest group, promoting use of several (long obsoleted) orthography rules. This group calls their variant of Belarusian orthography "classic". Alexander Mikhailian proposes creating additional be_BY@... branch, which would assert usage of the mentioned orthography variant. And that's perfectly okay! Just the qualifier isn't chosen well. I wouldn't put "classic" but rather, e.g., "alternative" there because: The term "classic", by every definition, is something well-recognized, widely or traditionally used. However, virtually nobody in Belarusian community outside of the interest group (which isn't numerous and/or popular!) recognizes the mentioned variant as "classic", neither by knowing or referring the name, nor by usage tradition -- as the variant's key orthography features were obsoleted about 70 years ago! Even the group-promoted usage of name "classic" started, it seems, between 1992 and 1994 (judging by two big publications on Belarusian orthography by one of the group leaders). On the other hand, term "alternative" here would be immediately recognizable, both by popular understanding and by group self-imaging. P.S. The book Kirill A. Shutemov pointed me to contains one of the editions of the mentioned orthography variant, published by the interest group, supervised, even authored, it seems, by one of the interest group leaders.
I really have no interest to get in the middle of all this. The extension @classic seems indeed to be wrong to me from what I read. And there is already a Belarusian locale. Unless this second language variant is the official one (which I doubt it is) it is best to just collect a tarball with all the appropriate files and distribute it separately. There is nothing a separately distribute locale source file cannot do if it is compiled using localedef upon installation. Adding variants like this (as opposed to Latin vs Cyrillic, for instance) would mean we open ourselves to all kind of fights like this. So, unless I get some really convincing arguments I'll close this as WONTFIX.
(In reply to comment #8) ... > So, unless I get some really convincing arguments I'll close this as WONTFIX. If nothing else comes up, I'm supporting this as it goes.
Yury Tarasievich says: "I think, word "classic" here would be misleading. This qualifier of the aforementioned orthography is self-awarded and is inaccurate by any definition, as both qualifier and orthography aren't used or recognized as such by anybody excepting rather minor minority." I wouldn't like to start the old discussion with Mr Tarasevich who has some unexplained repugnance for that other orthography and has been the only one to fight it vehemently in all relevant net discussions. However, I want to draw your attention to an inaccuracy in his comment - upon which all his argumentation is built: Those who follow that "other" orthography are in slight MAJORITY (not in minor minority) on the Net. You can easily prove it - just google any pair of words spelled differently in the two orthographies.
Let me re-iterate (and bring this back to topic): I am, generally, *in* *favour* of this separation of locales. The way I see it, if folks want their very own sub-locale, then okay and good riddance. There's already latin-scripted sub-locale approved, created, I hear, for the userbase that is yet to emerge one day. So why not one extra? But then, the initially proposed "classic" qualifier is inappropriate and unmerited, either measured by popular support or by usage tradition. And google hits aren't relevant at all to this exact question of being or not being classic. Other things, and quite material at that, are. Be it noticed, I do *not* accept even the general quality of Mr.Shupa's expoundations. But that kind of discussion would be well out of scope of this issue.
If the word 'classic' is controversial point then let name it e.g. 'alternative'. Do not let our puristic discussions lead us to nothing. But we need the locale.
Just for the record: I've nothing against naming this branch "alternative".
So what's the result? Maybe, it's time to register be_BY@alternative and to move/copy the existing *.po files of GNOME/coreutils etc. into this "namespace"? Also we should change the be_BY locale for the norms of standard Belarusian I think.
BTW, the Debian be-locale-data supports the be_BY@alternative extension quite a lot. Please, make this extension upstream.
IANA authorities has already approved the official name of alternative Belarusian orthography variant: be-tarask Here is the link: http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry Can we register this locale then?
we really need additional belarusian locale (be@tarask as aproved by IANA). Just because the most of translations made for be@tarask, not for be, and you can't ignore this fact
Dear Ulrich: Is there any chance we can get the bug fixed in glibc?
We want to use alternative Belarusian locale in our project (openinkpot.org), but we don't want to create yet another (216th) patch for glibc.
Created an attachment (id=4525) be_BY@tarask locale definition for glibc it's a be_BY@tarask locale definition for glibc. please, accept it at last.